Multiple news agencies report that President Trump issued a pardon to former Army Lieutenant Michael Behenna. Fox News quotes White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders:

White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders cited “broad support” for Michael Behenna, of Edmond, Okla., “from the military, Oklahoma elected officials, and the public” — including 37 generals and admirals, along with a former Pentagon inspector general — as the reason for Trump’s clemency grant. Sanders also said Behenna had been a “model prisoner” while serving his sentence.

“In light of these facts, Mr. Behenna is entirely deserving of this Grant of Executive Clemency,” Sanders concluded.

In April 2008, Behenna was a Platoon Leader deployed to Bayji, Iraq (north of Baghdad). That month he shot and killed a detainee named Ali Mansur. The shooting occurred during an unauthorized interrogation in a desert culvert, during which Behenna stripped Mansur naked and threatened him with a pistol. Behenna was charged with murder, and at court-martial in March 2009 he claimed self-defense, asserting that Mansur had thrown a piece of concrete at him and tried to grab his pistol just before the shooting. Nevertheless, members convicted Behenna of unpremeditated murder and assault consummated by a battery, and sentenced him to a dismissal, total forfeitures, and confinement for 25 years., The convening authority later reduced the confinement 20 years, and the clemency and parole board reduced it to 15 years.

CAAF affirmed the convictions in United States v. Behenna, 71 M.J. 228 (C.A.A.F. 2012) (CAAFlog case page), holding that Behenna lost and did not regain the right to self-defense as a matter of law during the encounter, and that the prosecution’s late disclosure of a potentially-exculpatory opinion held by a prosecution expert was harmless. The Supreme Court denied certiorari in 2013. Behenna was subsequently granted parole and released from confinement in 2014, and became a ranch hand.

Behenna’s pardon isn’t President Trump’s first pardon for a former servicemember. The President gave Kristian Saucier a pardon for his conviction of violating 18 U.S.C. § 793(e) for illegally retaining photographs of classified areas of a nuclear submarine.

President Obama also granted clemency, including the commuting the death sentence of Private Loving and commuting the 35-year sentence of Private Manning. Loving murdered two taxicab drivers in Killeen, Texas (near Fort Hood), and attempted to murder a third, on December 12, 1988. Manning stole hundreds of thousands of classified documents and gave them to Wikileaks. Loving’s sentence was commuted to life without the possibility of parole and Manning’s was commuted to confinement until May 17, 2017 (effectively a 7-year term). Both actions were taken on January 17, 2017; three days before the end of Obama’s second term. Loving remains in post-trial confinement, while Manning is newly confined – and has been for the past two months – for contempt of court.

Commutations & Clemency was the #9 Military Justice Story of 2017, and we discussed Presidential pardons for convicted wartime murders last year, in this Scholarship Saturday post.

35 Responses to “President Trump pardons Lieutenant Behenna”

  1. RealOG says:

    I hope the President takes a look at more of these convictions and grants pardons. Many of these Soldiers have led productive lives since their convictions, and the consequences of the punishment has served its purpose 15 years on. A pardon demonstrates forgiveness on behalf of the nation.

  2. muad'dib says:

    grand gestures of forgiveness feel a little hollow when you’re saying six years is enough for murdering a detainee

  3. Moses says:

    According to the Office of the Pardon Attorney:  “Pardon of a military offense will not change the character of a military discharge.  An upgrade or other change to a military discharge may only be accomplished by action of the appropriate military authorities.”  And furthermore:  “While a presidential pardon will restore various rights lost as a result of the pardoned offense and should lessen to some extent the stigma arising from a conviction, it will not erase or expunge the record of your conviction.  Therefore, even if you are granted a pardon, you must still disclose your conviction on any form where such information is required, although you may also disclose the fact that you received a pardon.  In addition, most civil disabilities attendant upon a federal felony conviction, such as loss of the right to vote and hold state public office, are imposed by state rather than federal law, and also may be removed by state action.”

  4. B. Wellington IV says:

    Long overdue.  This was not even a clear cut case of murder.  Some serious shenanigans at trial by the prosecution, as I recall.  Now, wait for the snowflakes to start melting.  It’s a great day to be an American!!!  #MAGA #nocollusion #tearsoflibtardssustainme

  5. Maga says:

    Miller, Hatley, Lorance I could go on and on! Those who know these individuals know that they are great people. I have confidence in the President that he will review and correct the political incorrectness that became the norm. When politicians control military court rooms IT IS a direct threat to our national security. Congratulations Lt Behenna and to your family!

  6. af_dc says:

    Zack, Mods, can you please get rid of the two knuckleheaded comments above off of here? It’s one thing to think Behenna was railroaded, or on the other hand to believe that he got what he deserved, and to argue accordingly, but we don’t need stupid political sloganeering on a blog run by, and frequented by, serious military practitioners. 

  7. slyjackalope says:

    af_dc,
     
    I’m guessing you think you’re a “serious military practitioner,” which leads me to question why you think Zach is going to start censoring CAAFlog just because you don’t like something that other people posted.  Are you eyes burning or something from going through the grueling ordeal of reading something you don’t agree with?
     

  8. af_dc says:

    No jackalope, I read things on this website that I disagree with pretty much constantly. It’s sort of a hazard of being a military attorney, or just an attorney. As I said in my comment, I don’t mind anyone saying that 1) Behenna was wrongly convicted and a pardon was the right move or 2) Behenna is a murderer and should still be in jail.  I actually don’t have strong feelings about this case, other than being mad that the prosecution did not turn over Brady evidence. This is not about me disagreeing with commnters’ takes. It’s about commenters using dumb political hashtags and user names that have nothing to do with the issue, and which make a smart site stupider. 

  9. dpc says:

    The real issue here is that the prosecutors overcharged him. His actions clearly fall under UCMJ Article 119(b) Involuntary Manslaughter. It reads “Any person subject to this chapter who, without an intent to kill or inflict great bodily harm, unlawfully kills a human being…while perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate an offense…directly affecting the person;is guilty of involuntary manslaughter…. It is clear that his detention and interrogation of the victim was unlawful and during the course of this unlawful confinement, the victim was killed. Self-defense doesn’t play a role in any of this because Behenna’s intent would have been irrelevant. Basically, you can’t create a dangerous, unlawful situation and then kill the victim when things turn south.

  10. Kettle Black says:

    dpc,
     
    I have not read all the facts, but you apparently are overstating things when you say his actions “clearly” fall under Involuntary Manslaughter.  The members apparently saw enough evidence to convict him of murder.  CAAF upheld it.  Which element of unpremeditated murder do you believe the government failed to prove, and the fact finder erroneously determined, and the reviewing authorities missed? 
     
    You can certainly have your own view or opinion on what really happened between Behenna and the victim.  But the government, and at least the finders of fact, saw it differently.  How was this conclusion “clearly” wrong?  You quoted Art 119b, but that doesn’t really help.  The UCMJ recognizes ‘depraved heart murder,’ or as Art 118 states, “engaging in an act that is inherently dangerous to another and evinces a wanton disregard of human life.”  Under the facts of the case, is it really so clear and unreasonable that the latter was used?

  11. slyjackalope says:

    That would be pretty unlikely that defense counsel would miss the Government presented no evidence of an element and fail to make a 917 motion, the military judge fail to sua sponte direct a not guilty verdict for the greater offense, and ACCA and CAAF miss these things as well.  We may think that involuntary manslaughter better covers what he did, but it seems clear unpremeditated murder fit as well.

  12. Concerned Defender says:

    @ Kettle Black – to answer your question, the prosecutors failed to provide material exculpatory evidence or information to Defense, hence that would impact the trial outcome for the finder of fact.  
     
    I recall this was an overcharging and corrupt boondoggle.  I applaud our President Trump for doing the RIGHT thing here.  The life of an American Army officer is more valuable than that of a known AQ terrorist.  
     
     Ali Mansur was a known AQ terrorist and that’s why 1LT Behenna’s squad picked him up at his home.  Mansur had terrorist weaponry including RPG(s), other weapons, and Iranian passport(s) (remember the Iranians were supplying weapons and IED materials to AQI during the surge time frame when this occurred).  Why did they pick him up?  Remember that 1LT Behenna’s squad was hit with AQ attacks and some of his men killed or injured, putting the crosshairs on Mansur.  They didn’t kill him in cold blood; they rounded him up and turned him over.  Bewilderingly, Military Intelligence released him.  Explain that?!?!  
     
    Government prosecutors violated Maryland v. Brady and didn’t give Defense material exculpatory evidence.  The judge should have granted a mistrial, and did not.  Appellate courts looked at this and reduced the sentence from 25, to 20, then 15 years, and finally 4 years served and parole.  
     
    So in the end, we have dead Americans killed by a dead terrorist, a waste of a promising officer’s career due to military intelligence failures and really poor ROE, and wasted how many millions of dollars on a boondoggle prosecution, wasting the resources of an entire unit, etc….. at what point do we stop this insanity and actually give our men tools to fight terrorism?  Rather than ruining them for trying to do the right thing?

  13. Tami a/k/a Princess Leia says:

    What about voluntary manslaughter?  Heat of passion or fear.  Not that it matters at this point.  And I’m not familiar enough with the facts of the case to opine whether the conviction was justified.

  14. jagaf says:

    Another step toward making America just a little less the shining city on the hill we want to think we are and a little more the nationalistic embarrassment certain wannabe-strongmen, chickenhawk, draft-dodgers are happy to make us.

  15. Vulture says:

    Again, it’s hard to tell what part of “he claimed self-defense, asserting that Mansur had thrown a piece of concrete at him and tried to grab his pistol just before the shooting” is true or not.  And I partly agree with CD on ROE.  Partly, because there is another element, rules for escalation of force.  They are something like:
    1.  Shout
    2.  Show(your weapon)
    3.  Point(your weapon)
     
    What comes next?  Add the defense of automaticity.  But soldiers, airman, and marines can’t only do what you’ve trained them to do as a perfect world would enact it.   I just don’t know how we got here with Behenna.

  16. SeñorTC says:

    An officer has a detainee grabbed because of HUMINT reports for an interrogation–and when they don’t have the evidence to hold any longer…he takes the detainee into a culvert and strips him naked and removes his zip-ties, while repeatedly threatening to kill him with a gun and interrogating him.  Behenna tells the detainee he’s going to kill him, and then says the naked detainee reaches for his gun, at which point he shoots the detainee in the chest and the head.  Then he tells a SGT to burn the scene with a thermite grenade.  71 MJ 228 for curious souls.
    And that’s *Behenna’s* version.  The Government’s theory that it was a planned execution wasn’t crazy, given that Behenna asked for a thermite grenade prior to taking him into the culvert.
    Look, war is hell.  We ask young kids to bear horrible responsibilities in uncertain and traumatic situations.  I don’t doubt the Behenna was convinced he was threatening a terrorist who deserved to be dead.  And I suspect he felt impotent, hamstrung and like he had do something for his people.  And so I don’t necessarily begrudge him getting out on parole after only 4 years.
    But if we’re willing to give a pass to a violation like this one, where DO we draw the line?  How do we tell others, or more importantly ourselves, that we care about the law of war?  What do we tell the PFC or LCpl about detainee abuse, if we let an officer take an unarmed detainee into a culvert, strip him naked, threaten him, kill him, and then tell someone to burn the scene?

  17. Concerned Defender says:

    jagaf says:
    May 8, 2019 at 12:08 AM  
     

    Another step toward making America just a little less the shining city on the hill we want to think we are and a little more the nationalistic embarrassment certain wannabe-strongmen, chickenhawk, draft-dodgers are happy to make us.

    @jagaf.  Hope you’re not active duty, as that sounds fairly disrespectful to the CiC.  And to rebut your nonsense statement, are we closer today or further away today than in WWII?  Unable to really defeat radical Islam after 4 decades of kid gloves and gentle approach…  Hamas just launched 700+ rockets at civilian targets in Israel and nobody bats an eye…  Our ineptitude and weakness and prosecuting our own for acts like Behenna’s has nearly lost the world to radical Islam.   Recall, in WWII the way the Allies including the USA defeated the Axis powers was carpet bombings, flame throwers, mass shelling, siege warfare, destroying holy buildings when necessary (Nazis used churches for shelter and we bombed the snot out of them regardless), and 2 nuclear bombs on civilian city targets.  I’ve seen countless interviews from the veterans of the ‘greatest generation’ who said they shot surrendering unarmed Japanese or Germans in the face and moved on.  That is how you decisively win a war.  You destroy the enemy and any will to fight until they surrender and lay down arms or die. 
     
    The problem is weak-minded and weak-willed Americans don’t understand war and what it takes to win.  Our grandfathers’ generation fought the Axis powers from about 1940-1945.  The Axis had military control over nearly all of Europe, part of Russia, northern Africa, 1/2 of the Pacific, and the US Aleutian islands.  We defeated them in about 4 or 5 years.
     
    In modern times, lawyers are probably more part of the problem than part of the solution and mistakenly think they can lawyer their way out of modern wars.  Well, we are 4+ decades into fighting radical Islam.  Plane hijackings, terrorist bombings, kidnapping, shooting down planes, 9/11/01, car bombs of many buildings including US embassies and buildings, assassinations, televised executions including beheadings, and on and on…  And for 4 decades we can’t seem to defeat illiterate conscripts in sandals and man dresses in a death cult that use donated or stolen equipment, WWII era rifles, Toyota pickup trucks, and improvised weapons like egg timers and cell phones.  I have my theories, and it’s plainly part of the fault of the dismal ROE that we are fighting to run out the clock or not lose, versus fighting to win.  The entire thing needs to be scrapped and we need only enter wars we intend on winning, and then do whatever it takes to win like the WWII generation.  We need to flex some US muscle and stop playing patty cakes.
     
    We need more 1LT Behenna’s, and to stop punishing brave Americans for trying to actually kill terrorists and win the war, like we have and continue to do with brave men like Chief Special Warfare Operator Edward “Eddie” Gallagher, or Mathew L. Golsteyn, or many others.  What nation sends its own men to do the nearly impossible knowing they may die or suffer life-long injuries, and then prosecutes them for actually killing terrorists?  I find such things EXTREMELY distasteful and frankly worse.  And that ignores the fact that the prosecutors in Behenna’s case withheld exonerating evidence (and in Golsteyn’s case, the lead investigator just pled guilty to lying and falsifying records- read about that here:  https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/05/07/lead-investigator-in-green-beret-murder-case-pleads-guilty-to-stolen-valor-charges/
     
    When you can’t trust your own government to execute a war and timely win it, nor to have your 6 downrange, and you can’t trust the prosecutors or investigators to be honest and prosecute with integrity, this system is woefully broken. 

  18. SeñorTC says:

    Concerned Defender,
     
    Well, I doubt there’s much room for convincing you, but I think you misapprehend the nature of the enemy here.  The simple brutality you valorize is unlikely to help us be more effective at finding terrorists hiding among civilians–and it’s likely to encourage both recruiting there and the prevalence of “lone wolf” terrorists here at home.  As someone that was over in the sandbox trying to help catch and neutralize them, I’d say effectively *finding* the terrorists is more of a problem than what we do once we’ve caught them. 
     
    The fact that some WWII vets described shooting unarmed, surrendering soldiers doesn’t mean it was a good thing, or that we needed to do it to win.  And I’d point out that the Soviets were happy to be far more brutal than the USA, and still left Afghanistan with their tail tucked between their legs.  Despite the enticing simplicity of it, sometimes you can’t simply bomb your way to the solution.
     
    Also, the “exonerating evidence” that was disclosed late was just that the Government expert forensic consultant (who didn’t testify) largely agreed with the two Defense experts who did testify.  It was Brady, but it wasn’t exonerating.  And the prosecutor disclosed it when the consultant advised he thought it was Brady material. 

  19. Concerned Defender says:

    @ SenorTC.  I spent several rotations fighting terrorism overseas as well, so I’m not ignorant on the issues.  I’ve heard the drumbeat mantra that we need to be nice to terrorists over 15 years now.  The policy of appeasement has been a dismal failure.  Europe is flooded and awash with Jihadists and America not far behind.  These emboldened animals commit terrorism with impunity around the globe and in our most cherished cities including Paris, London, NYC, Nice, and so forth.  Appeasing them, being gentle, has literally lead to 9/11/01 and done little to stop their spread.  Did you see the news this week?  Children in PHILADELPHIA singing in an organized song and dance about beheading infidels!  This is a sickness and is NOT protected speech nor should be condoned.
     
    From a tactician standpoint, our execution of the GWOT has been a nearly 2 decade failure, on the backs of several prior decades of failure;  my methods would be far more brutal (as war requires) to prove that Allah is a fake god in the most brutal of methods to eradicate that death cult from the globe.  We – western nations with values – are losing ground every year to the spread of the death cult because we appease and fail to take action, and we prosecute those like Behenna that do kill terrorists.  In a few decades, on this course, the USA will look like Tikrit or Kabul.  Shame on those Americans for the waste of valuable resources in prosecuting brave men like Behenna.   We are eating our own when we should be destroying radical terrorists everywhere, including now spreading into these great United States like in Philadelphia and elsewhere.  I am literally convinced some people WANT the radical Islamic terrorists to win, based on fighting against policies that protect us and prosecuting men like Behenna….

  20. Concerned Defender says:

    No edit button, so new post.  I will add to the above stating that the reason there’s “no convincing me” is because history has proven me to be correct.   You don’t defeat an enemy, whether it’s a nation state or a non-state actor, by appeasing him and shower him with fabricated “rights” like due process.  That has never worked and never will work.  The Nazis were a nation, but also a fanatical belief.  The Allies defeated that cult-like religion by breaking its back, leveling Germany, to the point their leader lost the will to live and committed suicide.  And the Nazis were far more powerful than radical Islam, and was the most advance military in the world at the time with the worlds best trained men, armor, powerful Navy with subs, and 2nd best air force (behind Japan).   We didn’t appease them or negotiate peace.  We bombed them into extinction and killed every single one that didn’t surrender. 
     
    Japan owned the Pacific and even occupied part of American soil.  The Japanese were as radical as Islamists.  They invented suicide bombings.  We didn’t negotiate with them.  We hunted them on every island and bombed them into submission.  We leveled Japanese cities with conventional bombing and ultimate nukes, until their people had no will to fight.  That is what it takes.  
     
    History proves me to be correct.  Most of the nonsense ROE and EOF should be thrown out as impractical and extending suffering and war into perpetuity.  And prosecuting our own for violating these stupid unworkable ineffective rules is asinine to the highest degree.

  21. Vulture says:

    SeñorTC says:
    “Behenna tells the detainee he’s going to kill him, and then says the naked detainee reaches for his gun, at which point he shoots the detainee in the chest and the head.”
     
    Take a read of Charlie Wilson’s War.  It describes the site of the  Avrakotos, Greek for ‘those without pants.’  According to legend they where something of a warrior sect that would strip before battle and charge.  The site being so disturbing that the enemy would brake ranks and run.  It’s not a bad tactic.  So Behenna was in a charged situation and acted according to his training.
     
    No, Government isn’t crazy.  But murder, that’s a reach for me.  It’s that part between the commas that is twisty.  The particular issue was whether someone can claim self defense when they are pointing a gun already.  Seems like a more tenable possibility than the opinions describe.

  22. Vulture says:

    But they way the situation is described above make me think of big game hunting in “South Park.”  So we’ll just have to take the Government’s word for it I guess.

  23. Don Rehkopf says:

    DISCLAIMER:  I was one of Behenna’s appellate attorneys. As such, I’m well familiar with the facts.
     
    There were two major issues in the Behenna litigation: (1) the egregious Brady violation which was not disclosed in a timely manner; and (2) a convoluted justification / self-defense instruction by the Military Judge.
     
    The Brady violation was too fact specific and in essence was an “error correction” issue, that SCOTUS rules (and practice) say are not “cert-worthy.” The instructional error however, was significant and lives to haunt other military members. If you’re interested, you can read it in our Petition for Certiorari HERE.
     
    The QP was framed as follows:
     

    Whether a servicemember in a combat zone categorically forfeits the right to self-defense as a matter of law by pointing a firearm without authorization at a suspected enemy.
     

  24. wiskey tango foxtrot over says:

    my methods would be far more brutal (as war requires) to prove that Allah is a fake god in the most brutal of methods to eradicate that death cult from the globe.  We – western nations with values – are losing ground every year to the spread of the death cult because we appease and fail to take action

    What the hell. Seriously. 

  25. SeñorTC says:

    Vulture,
     
    Certainly grant it was emotionally charged.  But I suspect that taking a to-be-released detainee to a culvert, stripping him naked, untying him and threatening to kill him is probably not acting according to his training.  That said, I guess I agree that standard Army doctrine for naked Greek charges is probably still Fire and Maneuver.
     
    Concerned Defender,
     
    What the heck do you mean, “policy of appeasement” with terrorists?  We’ve been running an extrajudicial killing campaign with sky-murder-robots across multiple continents for over a decade.  We’ve held GITMO detainees we don’t have enough evidence to charge without trial for almost two decades, hoping we can kill them off with diabetes.  When we find training camps, we bomb and raid them.  I mean, I understand you’d like us to be willing to kill even more bystanders as collateral damage, and kill folks we even suspect might be terrorists–but how does that point on the spectrum equate the current policy being appeasement?  Again, to my prior point–finding and detecting the terrorists is much more the challenge than what to do once we’ve cornered them.
     
    And yes, total war between major nation-states is cataclysmic.  We’re not fighting nation-states, there are not clear sides or marked armies, and there’s no Emperor Hirohito to surrender. 
     
    We should absolutely be concerned about children (or others) singing songs about killing the enemies of their religion or their race.  But let’s not be irrational in understanding the threat here–we’re combating ideologies, as much as we’re fighting networks–and the US is not on the verge of being toppled by an invading foreign Muslim horde.  Keep in mind that for the past *decade*, far-right and White Supremacist terrorists have killed more Americans than radical Islamists have.  Are you also eager for an indiscriminate bombing campaign in Montana to smoke them out?  Are you under the illusion that if we start indiscriminately killing Montanans, far-right radical crazies there would suddenly promise peace and loyalty to the government?  Because in my experience, that’s not how radical crazy operates.
     
    You say we’re a Nation of Values, but it seems like your point is that we should abandon values in the face of any threat.  Maybe I’m suffering from hubris, and don’t see how radical Islam, as awful as it is, constitutes an existential threat to the US that justifies that.  In the history of our country, no one has killed more Americans than our fellow Americans, and I don’t see evidence that that is going to change in the near future.

  26. Vulture says:

    SeñorTC says:
    “…taking a to-be-released detainee to a culvert, stripping him naked, untying him and threatening…”
     
    How did he strip him naked while he is still tied?  I will grant you, you did remove the inconceivable part outside the commas.  
     
    Let me ask you SeñorTC, which sounds more scary: “I am going to shot you” or “I am going to set you on fire.”  Which is more likely to cause fear enough to induce compliance?  How about, “I am going to blow you up” or “I am going to lite you up”?  Sure there is a bit of out of bounds activity with using Willie-Pete on troops in the open.  But it was an interrogation, not an execution.
     
    Don’t ask me to suppose for the benefit of the opposition.  Even our by the book, risk averse, politically correct senior leadership has to accept Murphy’s Rules of Combat; particularly – The enemy rarely cooperates.  I’d be guessin the naked Greeks understood that.

  27. SeñorTC says:

    Vulture,
     
    They cut off his clothes?  Did you read the cite I dropped before calling it inconceivable?   Again, 71 M.J. 228.  I don’t even think that part was disputed by Behenna.
     
    Let me ask YOU what’s more scary–a Pamela Grier, or a swarm of angry bees??  A wet gerbil, or lukewarm 4 day old coffee?!
     
    Seriously though, I don’t know what you’re getting at.  He could have tortured/threatened him in worse ways?  Interrogations aren’t always effective, so call Jack Bauer?
     
     

  28. Concerned Defender says:

    SenorTC: “Keep in mind that for the past *decade*, far-right and White Supremacist terrorists have killed more Americans than radical Islamists have. ”

    Can’t let that stupidly incorrect statement go unchallenged.  What a load of hogwash.  Care to back that up with some citations? You must be brainwashed by the Muslims that they are the victims of the evil white man or “white supremacists” which basically doesn’t exist in any significant presence.   
     
    In this century, “White supremacists” have not hijacked airplanes causing injuries, not blown up airplanes, and rarely used IEDs to spread terror (McVey being the lone exception, 3 decades ago), and rarely do mass casualty shootings (and those that do are insane people, generally democrats, and or lone wolfs and killed or prosecuted).  Since about the 1970s, Muslims have been routinely hijacking and blowing up airplanes, blowing up buildings, kidnapping and murdering innocent people, and using IEDs and VBIEDs against civilians in furtherance of their sickness.
     
    Let’s look at just this century to give fair context and go back to 9/11/01, and the root cause for this discussion.  
     
    18 years ago, followers of Islam murdered 3000 Americans, and injured 6000+, hijacking 4 airplanes, and hit civilian and military targets, crippled our financial system, and set the path on the USA invading two nations in long-term GWOT. 
     
    Since then, here’s a sample of what the world has endured, and most of these are purposeful civilian targets:
     
    * Muslim mass shootings/bombings/attacks including:  Boston pressure cooker bombing (4 dead, 280 injured),  San Bernidino (14 dead, dozens injured), Orlando nightclub shooting (49 killed, 53 injured), DC beltway snipers (17 dead, 10 injured), Ft. Hood shooting (13 dead, 33 injured), NYC truck attack (8 dead, 11 injured), Arkansas military recruiting station (2 casualties), bio-terrorism, probably mass forest fires set by terrorists, and dozens of failed attempts of hijackings, plane bombings, and mass casualty attacks in NYC, Chicago, Seattle, LA, Kentucky, and many more.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States#2000%E2%80%9309
     
    * Muslims have killed Americans and others around the globe where they spread their sickness, including mass casualty attacks in London x ~5 (tube bombings killed 50 and injured; London car/knife attack killed 6, injured dozens; concert bombing killed 22, injured 129; bridge attack killed 11, injured 48), France x~10 (137 killed, 300+ injured; Nice truck attack killed 80, injured dozens, smaller attacks are frequent), Spain (Barcelona attacks killed 11, injured 120), Bali (400+), Madrid (200 dead, 2000 injured), Russia (400 dead, 750 injured), Egypt (90 killed, 150 injured; 23 killed, 80 injured; plane bombing killed 200+; 47 dead, dozens injured), Indonesia (60 killed, 180 injured), Jordan (60 killed, 150 injured), India (205 killed, 700 injured; 56 killed, 200 injured; 150+ killed in separate attacks), Nigeria (200 killed; 120 killed; 200+ killed; 200 killed; 90 killed, separate attacks), Pakistan school massacre 140 killed, Kenya (150 killed), Turkey (100+ killed), Sri Lanka Easter attacks killed 270, injured 500+, and on and on Finland, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somolia, Belgium, Germany, Sweden, Australia, Morocco – basically anywhere you find Muslims.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks
     
    These are just the big successful attacks and does not paint the picture of the smaller crimes, violence, and terrorism like the two Scandinavian women raped and beheaded on video by Muslims.  Again, we have classes of Muslims in our American cities like Philadelphia chanting to cut off people’s heads!  Am I the only sane person alarmed by this??   The FBI raided and killed everyone in the Waco compound over allegations of child neglect… and yet we have kids in Mosques chanting to behead people….!!!
    https://www.phillyvoice.com/philadelphia-muslim-american-society-video-children-beheading-torture-disturbing/
     
    Yeah, clearly the “white supremacists” are the problem… 
     
    This is relevant to this blog thread to DEMONSTRATE the failed global policy, ROEs written by dumb lawyers who don’t know how to win a war, and US/global policy of appeasement and allowing this death cult to spread and plant roots in communities.  This is the poison of the cult and it needs to be blocked from communities.  Europe is suffering “no go” zones, massive crime waves, rapes, violence against women, knife and bomb and vehicle attacks, etc.  
     

  29. jagaf says:

    CD, we get it: Islam is evil, the white man must save himself (and his women, who should obviously be home with the kids), and GBU-12s are the cure. I’d ask if you were actually Alex Jones, but his recent deposition indicates even he doesn’t believe this kind of insanity. Seek help.

  30. SeñorTC says:

    I didn’t say radical Islamic terrorism wasn’t a problem, or that we shouldn’t fight it.  I pointed out that domestically, right-wing extremism has caused more death for the past decade.  See the 2018 ADL report on Domestic Extremism: https://www.adl.org/media/12480/download
     
    Curiously, you don’t give a citation show it’s untrue or hogwash.  But I do have to boggle at the statement “”‘White supremacists’ … rarely do mass casualty shootings (and those that do are insane people, generally democrats, and or lone wolfs.””
     
    I feel like the victims of Christchurch, the Pittsburg synagogue, the Charleston Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, Overland Park and Oslo, Norway might disagree.  I have no idea where you’re getting the impression that “generally democrats” are committing acts of domestic terror, unless you believe 4chan propaganda about the deadliest mass shooter in the US (homegrown Stephen Paddock).  Talk about “citation needed”.  I think the Poway synagogue might also find your dismissive attitude disappointing.  You’re also wrong that they’ve never been involved in bombings before.  Seriously, do you only Wikipedia your own side?
     
    Also, FYI, Waco (a tragedy) wasn’t due to a report of child neglect.  ATF was effecting a warrant due to their stockpiling of weapons.
     
    I never said white supremacists (or other right-wing extremists) are “the” problem (and apparently you don’t think they’re a problem at all?  Perhaps you think they’re “very fine people”)–I meant to point to their attacks as a matter of perspective. 
     
    For example, you talk about the horrible crime waves crushing Europe because of the “Muslim sickness” hitting them.  Tell me–which European country suffering from this plague has a higher murder rate than the United States?

  31. Concerned Defender says:

    SenorTC wrote: “I feel like the victims of Christchurch, the Pittsburg synagogue, the Charleston Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, Overland Park and Oslo, Norway might disagree.”

     
    I provided you a long list of regularly recurring domestic and international terrorism including triple and quadruple casualty numbers, including one that brought America massive grief and led to two invasions and wars or “armed conflicts” if you want to be specific.  Probably 10,000 innocent deaths and x2 injured.  All by radical Islamists which is what we are discussing (aka radical Muslims).
     
    You counter with five isolated incidents done by insane people with no real unified affiliation, for which I also condemn, and or which less than 150 people total were killed.  While very tragic, that’s 1% of what radical Muslims do. 
     
    Christchurch (50 killed) was done by a person with an agenda or false flag or incoherent motives, and is the only example you’ve given where Muslims were the victims.  Pretty lopsided considering Muslims killed thousands of Christians in this century.  Pittsburg (11 killed) and Overland park (3 killed) were done by a anti-Semite against (also white, so not a good example really) Jews (for which radical Muslims also kill with impunity, and just launched 700 rockets into Israel this month; so Jews are more frequently targeted by the latter than the former).   Charleston (9 killed) was by a white supremacist against blacks.  Oslo attack (not in the USA, but we’ll include it) (77 killed) by far right extremists.   Got any more mass casualty examples at the hands of “white supremacists?”  Otherwise you’re full of it. 
     
    Comment about Democrats being mass killers is based upon the political affiliations of the many high profile killers including the shooter of Congressman was a Sanders supporter, the Sandy hook killer was a registered Democrat, Columbine killers were from liberal families, the Ft. Hood killer was registered Democrat, VT college shooter was a registered Democrat, Navy Yard shooter was a liberal, shooter of Gabby Gifford was liberal anti-Bush, unibomber was a liberal/leftist, Lee Harvy Oswald was a Marxist (modern democrats),  Sir Han Sir Han was liberal, John Wilkes Booth was a Democrat, Bill Ayers was a domestic terrorist and Democrat, KKK was a democrat rooted militant arm of democrats that terrorized blacks, Planned Parenthood is a democrat run organization that murders 3000 babies every day totaling some 50 million infanticides in the last few decades, and let’s not leave out Hitler who was a socialist/leftist which is pretty much where the Dems are headed…
     
    Point noted about relative safety of white nations like America and Europe.  Murder rate in the USA is 5 per 100,000.  In Europe it’s about 1 or 2 per 100,000.   Total murders in USA is about 17,000 annually.   1/3 of those are in a few dozen densely urban areas.  If you remove the 20 or so violent densely populated inner-cities with 200-300 annual murders due to severe socio-economic and drugs and gang problems, (Chicago, Detroit, LA, Baltimore, Philly, etc. where murder rates are extremely high), the 5 per 100,000 murder rate in the rest of the USA drops to levels comparable to Europe (which has lost freedom of speech and gun ownership rights).   So, failed attempt at a false comparison.  Regardless, mostly white nations are relatively free and safe and boast extremely low murder rates, in the 0-5 per 100,000.  Guess who has high murder rates… if you guessed Muslim nations you’d be correct.  The only ones with low murder rates are dictatorships like Iran.  Or if you guessed Mexico (20 murders per 100,000), Puerto Rico (18 per 100,000), Guatamalla (27 per 100,000), El Salvador (85 per 100,000), or other 3rd world nations, which are trying to flood the US with their socio-economic problems, you’d also win a prize for being correct.  How many “white surpremists” are in Mexico, Puerto Rico, Guatamalla, El Salvacor, and these other locations with 15, 20, 50, etc. murders per 100,000??  
     
    Turns out “white supremacists” in spite of what the ADL claims are not the problem the world faces.  Even the ADL cited the biggest terrorist attacks in the US in this century were done by radical Muslims.  1 or 5 per 100,000 murders in white nations is extremely low murder rate globally.  It will increase with more radical Muslims, or an invasion of impoverished peoples.  Seems there’s one party (Dems, Socialists, Leftists) that wants this invasion.  Seems one party run by the GOP and Trump has tried to block the invasion by securing our borders…  

  32. stewie says:

    CD is what you get when Donald Trump’s Id makes sweet love with Stephen Miller’s Ego.

  33. SeñorTC says:

    Just a side note (because I really do have better hobbies than spinning up white nationalists); isn’t it a bit funny when folks like CD try to claim Lincoln as a “Republican” and use John Wilkes Booth to attack Democrats–given the GOP made a pretty clear decision to ditch Lincoln part of the party and embrace the Booths when Nixon went with the Southern Strategy and decided to strategically court the racists offended by the end of Jim Crow?

  34. Concerned Defender says:

    Funny how folks toss around Trump’s name like it’s an supposed insult.  hmmmm… let’s see:  Most successful President in modern history.
    * Defeated 15+ GOP contenders and then the anointed one, the corrupt Obama admin, DOJ/FBI crooked lawyers and agents, winning the most improbable victory in a landslide win and biggest political upset in maybe global history but certainly a few centuries, going from 1 in 100 chance to win to winning by 80 EC votes;
    * Successful billionaire business man and best POTUS in probably a 1/2 century;
    * Married to a gorgeous and intelligent model, most beautiful first lady in 1/2 century;
    * Defeated the Dems at every turn for 2-3 years.  Making them sputtering babbling idiots.  He was mocked but correct about spying.  He’s won the immigration issues thus far.  He’s been right about the wasteful witchhunt 2 year waste of $35 million “no collusion” investigation.  
    * Pardoned at least two great worthy service members (Hunter and Behenna).
    * Building a wall to secure the border.
    * Tax cuts saving middle class thousands of dollars.
    * Improving relations with allies.
    * Booming economy that Obama couldn’t do and didn’t think could be done.
    * Soaring stock market.
    * Veterans Admin improvements including veterans choice.
    * Vast de-regulation.
    * Two awesome SCOTUS judges and dozens of great federal judges.
    * Criminal justice reforms.
    * Rolled back ISIS, kicking but, pushed them out of Iraq, wrecking AQ.
    * Optimism about fixing the NK mess left by Obama.
    * Higher approval rate than Obama at the same point in their Presidencies…
     
    Yeah, I’ll take a compliment reference about Trump.  :)  
     

  35. Zachary D Spilman says:

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